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Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

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  • Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

    Forum searches turned up a few of you who are fans of the HP Procurve line, so I hope I'm in luck! I've trouble-shot this directly with HP for weeks, to no avail.

    I've read up on related issues, but I'm having trouble piecing together my solution to this. It seems to be related more to my server's DHCP scope and something unique(?) to the AP 530.

    In short: I made a very basic network with one subnet and one DHCP scope, run by my Server 2003 DC. DHCP clients including typical Windows, Mac and Linux have worked fine for a long time. My Procurve AP 530 works fine on other networks, but misbehaves on this one.

    I do know my TCP/IP & DHCP setups probably have a couple of idiosyncrasies. This was the first time I ever set up a domain; in setting it up and configuring the DHCP I used this guide:
    http://www.computernetworkinghelp.com/content/view/49/2/

    I did not want to use WINS (wasn’t going to have legacy OSes around), so I did not install a WINS server and skipped the configuration of the WINS server in the guide. But, I did not want to deviate from the rest of my guide. So (as I see clearly now,) I configured scope options as if WINS was present. Now I'm thinking I need to remove WINS options from my DHCP... I have a hunch this would solve my problem.

    Here are what I think are the relevant settings, all screenshot together on my server:
    http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk126/Scythes_Seattle/ServerTCP-IPproperties.jpg

    However, I can't verify this, because I don't know what the characteristics of my Procurve AP 530's DHCP client are... could it be that I need to add some service that it needs instead?

    I don't know why my other DCHP clients work but the Procurve does not. I've never seen anything else misbehave on my network the way the Procurve does.

    I first saw the Procurve's specific problem in the Web GUI: When I take it home or elsewhere, I can log in via browser and configure anything. It looks like this when working:
    http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk126/Scythes_Seattle/Working530athome.jpg

    When I plug it in at work in my domain, the GUI reports all kinds of gibberish. It looks like this:
    http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk126/Scythes_Seattle/530errorpage1.jpg

    Also, while I can connect to it initially if I'm lucky, I get disconnected and become unable to navigate between web GUI pages on the 530. Other network protocols have the same problem with it: Telnet, FTP (light?) etc. I then have to hard-reset the device before trying anything else with it. I thought it was defective at first, and I'm now on my 4th replacement from HP …they thought it was broken too, but then they let me try it at home and it was fine.

    So, it seems like a simple change to my DHCP or something will fix this.

    What could the problem be, and if it’s the DHCP scope settings, can I just change or delete them any time on a production server?

    Many thanks,

    Rprov

  • #2
    Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

    Change you TCP/IP settings so that your DNS server is your servers IP address and remove the ISP's one and add that as a forwarder.

    Change the router settings in your DHCP scope to point to the IP address of the router. 127.0.0.1 is the localhost.

    You don't have WINS installed so remove it from your DHCP scope.

    What do you mean you plug it in at work and it doesn't work?? From what i can see the IP addresses are different to what you are using at home. Doesn't your AP have a static IP address??

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

      I knew it was a little funky, I'm glad to have feedback.

      I got it all from that guide I linked, they actually tell you to do that. It works somehow, with Exchange and everything... those are the TCP/IP settings that my DC, AD, Exchange, everything is running on, and that the clients use. Keep in mind I did this when I was just getting started, I know a little better now but I need to know that I can work out of it safely without causing a catastrophe.

      Line by line in response to your advice:

      Change you TCP/IP settings so that your DNS server is your servers IP address and remove the ISP's one and add that as a forwarder.
      The ISP is already in there as a forwarder, it doesn't work without that... you can't see it in the picture but I encountered that problem and got that solution from Dell Enterprise. However, when I remove the ISP DNS from the TCP/IP, we start having DNS problems again.

      But what your saying is, I should replace local host in the preferred DNS server with the server's IP? 192.168.168.14? Remember there is only one box.

      Change the router settings in your DHCP scope to point to the IP address of the router. 127.0.0.1 is the localhost.
      In other words, change it to the gateway? We have a router / firewall of course, but it's not doing DNS, DHCP (turned off) or anything other than being the firewall and gateway. The server is doing all the routing and DHCP.

      You don't have WINS installed so remove it from your DHCP scope.
      I was hoping someone would say that. Can I just remove it any time, without any special precautions?

      What do you mean you plug it in at work and it doesn't work?? From what i can see the IP addresses are different to what you are using at home. Doesn't your AP have a static IP address??
      Yes, the IP subnets are different... at work I decided to use our SonicWall's default subnet as the one for the small office network. At home, the subnet is exactly what you'd expect. But the AP 530 has two modes, static IP and DHCP. Static IP was not on the right subnet, so I had to start with DHCP addressing to log in... then I see what you see in the screen shot. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't work. And when I say it doesn't work, I mean I can't stay logged into it (the connection disappears), and the GUI is not displaying proper network settings.

      I know it's wierd and wrong, but bear with me. I don't want to make any sudden moves that are going to bring Exchange down, etc.

      If I do all your suggestions together, would you expect the AP 530 DHCP client to be happy too, or are those just unrelated things to fix?

      Thanks,
      RP

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

        Originally posted by rprovise View Post
        I knew it was a little funky, I'm glad to have feedback.

        I got it all from that guide I linked, they actually tell you to do that. It works somehow, with Exchange and everything... those are the TCP/IP settings that my DC, AD, Exchange, everything is running on, and that the clients use. Keep in mind I did this when I was just getting started, I know a little better now but I need to know that I can work out of it safely without causing a catastrophe.

        Line by line in response to your advice:

        The ISP is already in there as a forwarder, it doesn't work without that... you can't see it in the picture but I encountered that problem and got that solution from Dell Enterprise. However, when I remove the ISP DNS from the TCP/IP, we start having DNS problems again.

        But what your saying is, I should replace local host in the preferred DNS server with the server's IP? 192.168.168.14? Remember there is only one box.

        In other words, change it to the gateway? We have a router / firewall of course, but it's not doing DNS, DHCP (turned off) or anything other than being the firewall and gateway. The server is doing all the routing and DHCP.

        I was hoping someone would say that. Can I just remove it any time, without any special precautions?

        Yes, the IP subnets are different... at work I decided to use our SonicWall's default subnet as the one for the small office network. At home, the subnet is exactly what you'd expect. But the AP 530 has two modes, static IP and DHCP. Static IP was not on the right subnet, so I had to start with DHCP addressing to log in... then I see what you see in the screen shot. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't work. And when I say it doesn't work, I mean I can't stay logged into it (the connection disappears), and the GUI is not displaying proper network settings.

        I know it's wierd and wrong, but bear with me. I don't want to make any sudden moves that are going to bring Exchange down, etc.

        If I do all your suggestions together, would you expect the AP 530 DHCP client to be happy too, or are those just unrelated things to fix?

        Thanks,
        RP
        Remove the external DNS server as it doesn't know anything about your network. As you have it in your forwarders tab you will still be able to resolve internet DNS queries.

        Yes. Always point the server to its own IP address and not localhost.

        What do you mean the server is doing all the routing??? If you have a router on your LAN subnet then use that as the default gateway. If you have 127.0.0.1 as the gateway you'll end up getting no where.

        You don't have a WINS server so it isn't working anyway lol.

        Right i think i get you now.

        What i would do is logon to the box using a LAN cable, disconnected fom your internal LAN on both the machine and AP. Does it get an IP address and if it does what range do you get???

        Get to the IP Addressing page and give the AP a static IP address and exclude it from your range.

        Does that make sense or am i barking up the wrong tree???

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          Remove the external DNS server as it doesn't know anything about your network. As you have it in your forwarders tab you will still be able to resolve internet DNS queries.
          I did it originally because I thought it was the only way to look up domains on the web. It sounds like that is the roll of the gateway setting instead, not the DNS setting. Our gateway itself just needs to know the ISP's gateway to look up websites etc., correct?

          The last time I removed the external DNS server, the user PCs in the office slowly stopped being able to look up websites over the course of a day. Dell advised me to remove the ISP DNS, but I don't think they knew about the rest. Maybe if I get all the settings in order and then flush the DNS on the clients, it will all be ok? See below about the 127.0.0.1 gateway, I think this is related.

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          Yes. Always point the server to its own IP address and not localhost.
          Ok. If I do this now in TCP/IP properties, will this affect AD, Exchange, any "bindings" etc? The original settings get hard-stamped onto certain things, I thought, causing chaos when you change TCP/IP.

          My old guide says (and I quote): "You should have 127.0.0.1 as your DNS server [in TCP/IP properties of your DNS server]. This will let the server resolve its own DNS queries."

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          What do you mean the server is doing all the routing???
          I guess I say it's doing the routing because it's doing DNS and DHCP for the network. I figured, if I'm turning off the DNS / DHCP etc. on my SonicWall router / gateway, it's not so much a router anymore because I thought those were the primary services of a router. I thought, the server is doing DNS / DHCP, so it's the "router".

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          If you have a router on your LAN subnet then use that as the default gateway. If you have 127.0.0.1 as the gateway you'll end up getting no where.
          This must be partly why the client PCs stop being able to look up some websites and not others, when I remove the ISP DNS from TCP/IP as mentioned above.

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          You don't have a WINS server so it isn't working anyway lol.
          True enough. Well, that tells me what kind of attitude I can take with situations like that. I'm extremely careful with anything in a server roll. I've been "brash" and just deleted every reference to WINS in my scope options, during production hours.

          Originally posted by wullieb1 View Post
          What i would do is logon to the box using a LAN cable, disconnected fom your internal LAN on both the machine and AP. Does it get an IP address and if it does what range do you get???

          Get to the IP Addressing page and give the AP a static IP address and exclude it from your range.

          Does that make sense or am i barking up the wrong tree???
          Well, the AP is either going to expect to be assigned DHCP from my laptop, or else default to the factory static IP. But I agree I should be giving the AP a static IP outside my scope, which I know to do and left room in my subnet for. I understand that's the best practice for wireless that will be passing on DCHP requests.

          I can't remember why, but there was some other trouble with the cable-AP-directly-to-my-laptop method. Even ensuring that my laptop was in the same default subnet as the AP. Maybe I needed to find a crossover cable or something, though this is rare now. What I could always do is take it home, log in, and set a static IP there that will work when I bring it to the office.

          But pretend I needed to use DCHP on the AP for some reason, were my funky scope and TCP/IP settings enough to throw it off? Should it work after fixing them?

          If it's a static IP, are there any extra steps to make sure wireless clients can look up our main server and vice versa? Will the server still assign DHCP to clients through the AP? Actually I think after reading between the lines on my own, it will, because DHCP requests are broadcast.
          Last edited by rprovise; 7th May 2009, 19:55.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

            Lets start at the top and work down. I actually think we have a couple of issues but we can work through them on this thread.

            When you have DNS installed for you domain it is authorative for that domain only. Web searches won't worka as your DNS doesn't know how to resolve it. Adding your ISP DNS as a forwarder will allow your server to resolve web addresses.

            Have a read at this and hopefully it'll explain the 127 war a bit easier http://www.experts-exchange.com/OS/M..._21568220.html

            Your exchange and other settings will work perfectly ok when you change the DNS IP address, at least i wouldn't expect it to cause any issues.

            I think your grasping the concept of a router wrong. A router is basically a device that forwards packets between network segments. By this i mean that if the client machine is trying to connect to a machine on a different network then your router will forward the packets to that network. Obviously if the segment is on the same network address then the router doesn't get involved. DNS/DHCP etc, etc, etc are all just add-ons IMO. Does this make sense to you?? Hopefully it does.

            It probably is why your client can't get to websites. Remove it as it will cause problems.

            Well if you don't have a WINS server installed clients can't query it regardless of whether you have the server there. It is very simple to install WINS though if you want to. Just add it from the Windows Components section in Control Panel and thats it.

            Once we fix your DNS/DHCP issues then your AP should be able to pick up an IP address from your DHCP server. It should be doing this using a cable and the wireless portion then runs clients.

            Static IP makes it easier to manage than dynamic, although a DHCP reservation would fix it. IMO all servers, routers, switches, AP's, firewalls, printers should have static IP's. Others will disagree though so it is subjective.

            If you want to post up a pic of your network with any identifying information removed i would recommend how i would set it up.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

              An update, so I'm not too much of a pain in the butt :

              All I've done so far is remove the WINS stuff and remove 127.0.0.1 from the "003 Router" option in the DHCP scope.

              I got to thinking, this much is probably enough to make the AP 530 WAP work on my network; the WAP doesn't care much about ISP DNS being my 2nd-preferred DNS lookup. Actually, I would think the WINS stuff had nothing to do with it. Telling DHCP clients to look at localhost for routing information, on the other hand, probably confused the AP DHCP client to death.

              The AP manual reminded me that the 530 actually tries DHCP first, then static IP if that doesn't work.

              So, I just plugged it in.

              It works now!! ++Reputation for Wullieb1.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

                Glad to see you got it working.

                Thanks for posting back as it always helps other in their quest.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Procurve AP 530 misbehaves with my Server 2003 DHCP

                  'Morning from WA Wullie, although I bet you're happily snoozing away right now.

                  I've lurked here and at other forums for a good long time, so I definitely understand posting back to say what the solution was. Glad to do it, and I plan to do it every time. I know how frustrated I get when I google a thread about some bizarre problem I'm having and find a perfect match that is months old... only to find no resolution.

                  I tried adding to your reputation, but I'm not sure it worked, I'll go review.

                  I'd love to read about the 127.0.0.1 issue but I don't have a membership with that site yet. I'll look into that too. Or is there a little part that can be reposted here?

                  If you'd like to comment, here is a small graphic of my network. It has two inexpensive gateways so that we can make two services available to the web that both use HTTP, and the two servers are in the same subnet so that one can use AD from the other in a simple way. The client computers and WAPs, printers etc. are all dangling from the PowerConnect switch of course. I do have a backup switch (not pictured). Pretty simple. Also, the IPs in this example sketch I made with Dell are not mine, so I don't care who sees them.

                  http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/k...le/Network.jpg

                  How shameful, I've learned things above the level of "what is a router and what does it do", but my definition of routing was mistaken. You could conceptualize it like I did, as the routing of data via addressing in DNS and DHCP, but that would not be correct. I think the question just never came up for me.

                  I do intend to remove the ISP DNS from my TCP/IP, and now that localhost in "003 Router" DHCP is gone, that shouldn't cause client problems. Just for ease of transition, I'm thinking about waiting one address lease period before doing that.

                  Now that I think about it, I have already removed the ISP DNS before and Exchange was fine... I seem to remember something about AD binding on top of the server's static IP that I ran into during my server setup, but DNS is different.
                  Last edited by rprovise; 8th May 2009, 17:51.

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